Lots Of Questions....Sorry

1544 Views 20 Replies 9 Participants Last post by Flying Flea, Apr 6, 2010

Bigadz

Discussion Starter · Apr 1, 2010

Hi all,

I have been on hear a while reading and trying to educate myself more on the 5 prior to a project which my brother and I want to undertake, for a Mk1 track MX-5.

We plan on getting a 5 for maybe 2k as a base, probably the 1.8 but could be the 1.6 depending on what we decide would form the best base for a track? Ultimately we are looking for around 200whp and sub 900kg.

To begin with we will look at the setup and chassis: Roll cage (TR Lane looks good),Under bracing, Coilovers (Not sure, what brand) and uprating the braking system with better pads, braided lines etc. What can people recommend for this area of development and what wheel size would be best?

When we are more familiar with the car we will look to work on the engine, the options with this seem to be difficult to choose between. SC will give the best power characteristics I think but is expensive unless you go down the Mini SC route. I am also unsure as to how much gains the Mini SC will give, can we get close to 200hp - is it comparable to the JRSC kit?? I am less inclined to go with TC because of what might be a spiky power delivery and reliability issues unless i can be convinced otherwise?

Obviously cost plays its part and we would want to do a lot of the work ourselves. Any advice on all this lot would be great!

Thanks, Adam

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

Skuzzle

· #2 · Apr 1, 2010

you'll get 200 bhp from a mini charger for sure.
It is the same m45 charger as the jr kit.

You wont get a cheaper install though than a turbo.

Personally i prefer the 1.6 engine.. It feels a lot more lively than the 1.8, but the 1.8 comes with the better kit for track focus.. i.e. better brakes and more stiffening.

Your goal is easily achievable though.

Mr Slow

· #3 · Apr 1, 2010 (Edited by Moderator)

Skuzzle said:
you'll get 200 bhp from a mini charger for sure.

Not whp which is what was reqested by the OP you won't

OP if you want 200whp you either need an MP62 with all the trimmings, or a turbo with most of the trimmings

Reliability wise they're both on a par with each other IMO, do it right and it'll be fine, do either wrong/on the cheap* and your asking for trouble.

As for engines, i prefer the 1.8, more base power and everything else is generally beefier, plus theres a wider availability of FI options for the 1.8 over the 1.6

* by this I mean have great control of fuel and timing, ensure you have adequate cooling, and on the turbo side don't skimp on the manifold/locking hardware.

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Bigadz

Discussion Starter · #4 · Apr 1, 2010

Skuzzle said:
you'll get 200 bhp from a mini charger for sure.

Not whp which is what was reqested by the OP you won't

OP if you want 200whp you either need an MP62 with all the trimmings, or a turbo with most of the trimmings

Reliability wise they're both on a par with each other IMO, do it right and it'll be fine, do either wrong/on the cheap* and your asking for trouble.

As for engines, i prefer the 1.8, more base power and everything else is generally beefier, plus theres a wider availability of FI options for the 1.8 over the 1.6

* by this I mean have great control of fuel and timing, ensure you have adequate cooling, and on the turbo side don't skimp on the manifold/locking hardware.
[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback, I would guess the MP62 is quite a bit more expensive than the 45? If we could get 200hp at the fly from the 45 then I think that would be enough to make such a light thing fun. Because the fitting of the SC seems to be more straightforward over TC I am inclined to go with that at the moment, with the 1.8 being more substantial in many ways, I think that would be a good route.
A good chassis setup will be just as important as outright power anyway.

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KFC

· #5 · Apr 1, 2010

Spikey power delivery and reliability are turbo myths , I suffer from neither ,

If you want 200whp then turbo is the way forward cheaper than an Mp62 with all the trimmings

or just buy onlymx5ives FM2 car and save your self a fortune

Skuzzle

· #6 · Apr 1, 2010

KFC said:
Spikey power delivery and reliability are turbo myths , I suffer from neither ,

If you want 200whp then turbo is the way forward cheaper than an Mp62 with all the trimmings

or just buy onlymx5ives FM2 car and save your self a fortune

missread the op but yeah for whp id go turbo (or buy already built)
an mp62 with proper management etc is going to cost a lot and the extra cost I couldnt justify against the performance of a turbo.

I do prefer laccy band though

Bigadz

Discussion Starter · #7 · Apr 1, 2010

KFC said:
Spikey power delivery and reliability are turbo myths , I suffer from neither ,

If you want 200whp then turbo is the way forward cheaper than an Mp62 with all the trimmings

or just buy onlymx5ives FM2 car and save your self a fortune

I understand if something is done properly then those characteristics will not be a problem, I take it your delivery is nice and smooth then? Would a full turbo kit inc management come in at less than ?1k and how difficult is installation??

Mr Slow

· #8 · Apr 1, 2010

Bigadz said:
I understand if something is done properly then those characteristics will not be a problem, I take it your delivery is nice and smooth then? Would a full turbo kit inc management come in at less than ?1k and how difficult is installation??

A kit? highly unlikely for either a supercharger or a turbo kit the MINI CooperS chargers aren't really a kit, it's a DIY job unless you can get hold of one from Mr Fast.

Cheap | Reliable | Fast

You can pick two.

Now remember you want this for track work, so nothing can be marginal, trackwork is very hard on a car, so consider you're likely to have to upgrade the clutch and the radiator, that's nearly half your budget already. An ECU and injectors as a bare minimum you're looking at nearly ?300.

So that's ?200 left to get the actual FI choice.

KFC

· #9 · Apr 1, 2010 (Edited by Moderator)

you will not get 200whp for 1k , a mini super charger kit from mr fast is 650 ish ? on top of that you need management , fuelling, smaller pulley , Inter cooler and at best you'll see 215 (@ fly) ish ,

Isn't Pat selling a fully sorted 1.8 turbo setup (everything) for 2k ish ? and thats pretty cheap

and yes my delivery is very smooth as a few nutzers will testify

indykid

· #10 · Apr 1, 2010

KFC said:
Isn't Pat selling a fully sorted 1.8 turbo setup (everything) for 2k ish ? and thats pretty cheap

it's a 1.6 kit, but yes. it's very sorted and very smooth. superchargers have a bit more grunt at the very bottom end but on track, it's easy to keep a turbo really singing.

it even includes the longer manifold studs you need for an FM manifold. pat's Avoneer on here btw.
tom

Bigadz

Discussion Starter · #11 · Apr 1, 2010 (Edited by Moderator)

Yeah I didn't mean 1k for the whole budget, I was just meaning the FI components really but I can see that the mini charger is going to be around 700-800, I was just wondering what a comparable turbo setup would be around 1kish, or how much for 200whp?

indykid said:
Isn't Pat selling a fully sorted 1.8 turbo setup (everything) for 2k ish ? and thats pretty cheap

it's a 1.6 kit, but yes. it's very sorted and very smooth. superchargers have a bit more grunt at the very bottom end but on track, it's easy to keep a turbo really singing.

it even includes the longer manifold studs you need for an FM manifold. pat's Avoneer on here btw.
tom
[/quote]

Sounds like a good price considering the spec etc. We are not quite ready to buy right but hopefully wont be too long.

KFC

· #12 · Apr 1, 2010 (Edited by Moderator)

the mini charger will cost more by the time it's fitted 650/700 to buy it , 250>300 for basic management (EMB) 100 for some 320cc injectors , then cooler , smaller pulley etc and that lot wont break 200 @fly (maybe just)
, to break 200 you'll need a standalone or something capable of running larger injectors an it all get s more expensive

ten you need to consider wideband , knock etc

for 200 whp you'd be doing well to get away with less than 2>3k , dunno what an fm2 kit is these days

Bigadz

Discussion Starter · #13 · Apr 2, 2010

KFC said:
the mini charger will cost more by the time it's fitted 650/700 to buy it , 250>300 for basic management (EMB) 100 for some 320cc injectors , then cooler , smaller pulley etc and that lot wont break 200 @fly (maybe just)
, to break 200 you'll need a standalone or something capable of running larger injectors an it all get s more expensive

ten you need to consider wideband , knock etc

for 200 whp you'd be doing well to get away with less than 2>3k , dunno what an fm2 kit is these days

Thanks for the info, it all helps..

To me it sounds like the extra power from either the M92 or FM2 turbo kit is quite a big step price wise considering the gains. If its possible to get 200 at the fly with the Mini charger for say ?1200-1300 then maybe getting an extra 25hp(est) isn't worth the pursuit for what it could cost, although i appreciate it would be a good deal more potent.

Michael

· #14 · Apr 2, 2010

Well i am going a similar route to you, here is my list:

Standard(ish) 1.6 eunos, with 14 degree timing mod, no car, and induction kit

Will be fitting:
Seats
Gaz gold adjustables
Total rebush
Harddog roll bars
Harnesses
1.8 brakes and braided lines

And getting a proper corner weight and geo.

I will see how this goes before I go FI. My honest thoughts? Obviously track specific, but to be fast it will have to handle incredibly, so I am concentrating on that first. For the amount of cash I am spending I coudl easily have gone FI, but I think thats pointless unless the car handles as well as it can.

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Michael

· #15 · Apr 2, 2010

Oh, and in the wet at Silverstone (power curcuit normally) I've seen a well driven racing MX-5 drive round GT3's.

Bigadz

Discussion Starter · #16 · Apr 2, 2010

Michael said:
Well i am going a similar route to you, here is my list:

Standard(ish) 1.6 eunos, with 14 degree timing mod, no car, and induction kit

Will be fitting:
Seats
Gaz gold adjustables
Total rebush
Harddog roll bars
Harnesses
1.8 brakes and braided lines

And getting a proper corner weight and geo.

I will see how this goes before I go FI. My honest thoughts? Obviously track specific, but to be fast it will have to handle incredibly, so I am concentrating on that first. For the amount of cash I am spending I coudl easily have gone FI, but I think thats pointless unless the car handles as well as it can.

I agree, the best plan will be to get the handling setup just right first of all, then focus on the power, it has to be drivable and fun of course as that's what its all about. Adding power later will give it more adjustability, it would be nice to raise the bar with wider tyres and then get the power to match that grip later on.
I will have to check out those Gaz gold's....

skinny

· #17 · Apr 2, 2010

Michael said:
Oh, and in the wet at Silverstone (power curcuit normally) I've seen a well driven racing MX-5 drive round GT3's.

sorry but they must also have been pussies in the GT3's.
i would agree tho that it might be better to sort other bits out first, get to know the car on the stock engine, and then upgrade the power.

KFC

· #18 · Apr 2, 2010

skinny said:
Oh, and in the wet at Silverstone (power curcuit normally) I've seen a well driven racing MX-5 drive round GT3's.

sorry but they must also have been pussies in the GT3's.
i would agree tho that it might be better to sort other bits out first, get to know the car on the stock engine, and then upgrade the power.
[/quote]

I've watched the wheels in motion guys drive the arse off their stock 5 's with there geo and gaz gold pro at combe and get passed buy everything

Michael

· #19 · Apr 3, 2010

I shoudl have said I am going for the pro's too....

Malcolm

· #20 · Apr 3, 2010

I am not an FI knowledgeable chap, but the Americanism "there ain't no sub for cubes" does hold true so I would suggest a 1.8 engine as your starting point. I did originally want FI but regulations said no but up till then for track work I was angling towards the Rotrex (Rotrax?) SC as it was a high RPM item so suited for track driving where you should be living at high RPM over low RPM. IMHO of course!!!!!

On losing weight, that will really help you and it is something I have gone a bit mad on with my car. Have a look at Malcolm's Race Car Build thread and steal whatever ideas you fancy. If you are driving to and from the circuits then that will make a difference on how far you can go. Trailering will allow you to remove more weight obviously.

Good luck with the project, sounds like a fun one.

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